Anthony Davis

Western Notes: Davis, Lakers, Kessler, Garuba, Canales

While the Lakers are certainly well aware of Anthony Davis‘ injury history, they were impressed with how he battled through his foot issues last season and recognized that he spearheaded their defensive turnaround after the trade deadline, with the club advancing to the Western Conference Finals despite a terrible start to 2022/23.

“They understand AD and his work ethic has shown,” Klutch Sports CEO Rich Paul told Mark Medina of Sportskeeda on Friday. “He has some injuries, but it wasn’t due to him not working. It’s not like he came into camp overweight or showed any laziness. There were just fluke things. That happens in the game.”

Paul said the two sides are still determining whether Davis will have a player option in his new three-year extension, but it will not contain a team option.

Both Medina — writing for The Sporting Tribune — and Jovan Buha of The Athletic believe it’s a win-win for Davis and the Lakers, though there’s obviously some risk involved for Los Angeles. The two authors note that Davis could potentially have earned more money had he hit free agency in 2024.

Here’s more from around the West:

  • After a standout rookie season, Jazz center Walker Kessler, who will be representing Team USA at the upcoming World Cup, has added 15 pounds of muscle this offseason, according to Tony Jones of The Athletic. “A lot of the offseason has been about gaining weight and gaining strength,” Kessler said. “It’s been a lot of hard work. But I’m excited to try and put myself in a position to make a difference on the floor, so the work has been a lot of fun. I love the weight room. I love working on my body. I’m really excited to be a part of Team USA and extremely thankful that I get to be a part of this. I think the amount of talent and the amount of knowledge that’s going to be on the roster is amazing. I’m trying to learn as much as I can and use this experience to try and better myself in every way that I can.”
  • Speaking to Nacho Duke of Spanish outlet Marca, Thunder big man Usman Garuba said he hopes to spend the rest of his professional career in the NBA. “If possible, I intend to play my entire career in the NBA, and I’m going to push it to the maximum,” Garuba said, per BasketNews.com. “I do not think about another thing. Anything can happen, but I only have in mind to continue in the NBA all my professional life.” Oklahoma City acquired Garuba last month via trade.
  • Veteran assistant Kaleb Canales is joining the Texas Legends — the Mavericks‘ G League affiliate — as associate head coach, sources tell ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski (Twitter link). Canales, who became the NBA’s first Mexican-American head coach in 2012, last worked for the Pacers in 2020/21. He also had stints with Portland, Dallas and New York over his lengthy coaching career, so it will be a reunion with the Mavs organization.

Lakers Notes: Reaves, 14th Man, Wood, Davis

Lakers guard Austin Reaves, who previously identified the Spurs and Rockets as teams that had some interest in him this offseason, said at this week’s Team USA training camp that his goal when he reached restricted free agency was always, “Get back to L.A.,” as Tim Bontemps of ESPN writes.

[RELATED: Spurs Considered Lucrative Offer Sheet For Austin Reaves]

Signing an offer sheet with another team could have put Reaves in position to earn more than the $54MM over four years he’ll get from the Lakers, who were unable to offer him a higher salary (but could have matched a bigger offer sheet). However, when the two Texas-based teams decided not to seriously pursue him, Reaves was happy to simply re-sign with Los Angeles.

“I had a stressful probably 10 hours, but after that, when it was done, couldn’t be more excited with the situation, with the team that we got, going back to L.A.,” he said. “… We played out every scenario. My agents, we talked probably literally like 10, 11 hours straight that night about what we wanted in the contract, years, whatever. But like I said, I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else.”

Here’s more on the Lakers:

  • The Lakers may prefer to fill their 14th roster spot sooner rather than later, according to Dan Woike of The Los Angeles Times, who believes Christian Wood is probably still be the team’s top choice for that opening if he’s willing to sign for the veteran’s minimum. As Woike observes, L.A. could point to examples like Malik Monk and Dennis Schröder to sell Wood on the idea that he’d have the opportunity to thrive with the Lakers for a year on a minimum-salary deal and parlay that performance into a bigger payday.
  • Although the Lakers generally deploy Anthony Davis at center in their most important games and minutes, they continue to speak publicly about using lineups that pair him with another big man. Jovan Buha of The Athletic digs into that subject, expressing skepticism that the Lakers will use Davis at power forward alongside a center very often, given the make-up of their roster and the success they’ve had with AD at the five.
  • In case you missed it, the big news today in Laker Land is Davis’ three-year, maximum-salary contract extension. We have the full story on that agreement right here.

Anthony Davis Becomes Extension-Eligible

Lakers big man Anthony Davis is now eligible to sign a veteran contract extension, as Bobby Marks of ESPN tweets.

Davis officially signed his current contract, a five-year, maximum-salary deal, on December 3, 2020. Typically, a player who signs a five-year contract must wait three full calendar years before he becomes extension-eligible, but the 2020 offseason was an unusual one due to the schedule irregularities caused by COVID-19.

Free agency didn’t begin until November 21 that year, with the regular season tipping off on December 22. The NBA determined that Dec. 3 of that offseason would have corresponded to August 4 in a typical offseason, which is why Davis became extension-eligible today.

Davis has two years left on his current contract — he’s owed a guaranteed $40,600,080 salary in 2023/24, with an early termination option worth $43,219,440 in 2024/25.

Exercising an early termination option is essentially the same as declining a player option — in either case, the player ends his contract a year early. However, there’s one key difference: an early termination option can’t be exercised as part of a veteran extension agreement. That means that if Davis wants to sign an extension this offseason, he would have to decline that ETO, which would lock in his current 2024/25 salary and result in his new deal beginning in ’25/26.

Davis will have until the day before the regular season begins in October to sign an extension this year. If he and the Lakers haven’t worked out a new agreement by that time, he would have to wait until the 2024 offseason to revisit his contract situation. At that point, he could either opt into the final year of his current contract and extend off that deal, or opt out and seek a new contract as a free agent.

The maximum value of a potential extension for Davis will depend on the rate at which the NBA’s salary cap increases during the next two offseasons. In an NBA Today appearance on ESPN on Thursday (YouTube link), Marks stated that a three-year extension for Davis could be worth up to about $169.1MM, but that would be based on a relatively conservative cap projection in the neighborhood of $149MM in 2025/26.

If the cap were to increase by the maximum allowable 10% in each of the next two seasons, a three-year extension for Davis could instead be worth as much as $186.6MM.

That may seem like a risky investment for a player who has battled injuries throughout his career and who wasn’t necessarily playing at a superstar level offensively during the Lakers’ postseason run this spring (he averaged 22.6 points per game in 16 contests).

However, Davis is still one of the NBA’s top two-way stars when healthy, and he’s only 30 years old. It’s worth noting too that extending him now would pay off in the long run if the alternative is negotiating a maximum-salary free agent contract of up to five years in 2024. If the Lakers were to extend Davis now, they’d lock him into a salary below his max in 2024/25 and would only have to commit to up to four total seasons beyond ’23/24, rather than five, reducing some of the risk on the back end.

ESPN’s Brian Windhorst recently suggested that there’s an expectation the Lakers will make Davis an extension offer fairly soon, while his colleague Dave McMenamin predicted the two sides will have a deal in place before training camp.

Lakers Notes: Rotation, Point Guards, Christie, Hayes, Davis

Breaking down the Lakers‘ potential lineup decisions for the 2023/24 season, Jovan Buha of The Athletic forecasts a 10-man rotation, led by stars LeBron James and Anthony Davis.

At this point, Buha favors incumbent Lakers D’Angelo Russell, Austin Reaves, and Rui Hachimura – all of whom signed lucrative new contracts this offseason – to fill out the starting lineup. He predicts the 10-man rotation will be filled out by Jarred Vanderbilt, Max Christie, and newcomers Gabe Vincent, Taurean Prince, and Jaxson Hayes.

As Buha notes, the Lakers will want to avoid overworking James and Davis to ensure that they’re healthy for the playoffs, so players outside his projected 10-man rotation, including free agent addition Cam Reddish and rookies Jalen Hood-Schifino and Maxwell Lewis, could get a chance to earn some minutes too.

Here’s more on the Lakers:

  • Although Buha has Russell penciled in as the starting point guard, he acknowledges that could change, observing that Vincent’s 3-and-D skill set is a better fit next to the Lakers’ stars. It’s a “coin flip” as to who will end up as the go-to point guard, Buha writes, suggesting that both players will have important roles.
  • Christie is the most difficult Laker to project for the 2023/24 season, says Buha. If he breaks out like he believes he can, he should have no problem securing a spot as the eighth or ninth man in the rotation. If not, he may end up battling Reddish for minutes as the 10th man.
  • According to Buha, the Lakers hope that Hayes will be able to start alongside Davis in scenarios when the team opts to roll with a two-big lineup. However, Buha doesn’t foresee a major regular role for Hayes, noting that there are only so many frontcourt minutes to go around as long as James, Davis, Hachimura, and Vanderbilt are healthy. If the Lakers were to sign another free agent center such as Christian Wood or Bismack Biyombo, Hayes’ spot in the regular rotation would be even less certain, though injuries and/or load management could ultimately open the door for him to play frequently.
  • In the latest Hoop Collective podcast (YouTube link), ESPN’s Brian Windhorst, Tim Bontemps, and Tim MacMahon discuss the fact that Davis will become extension-eligible later this week and consider the odds of he and the Lakers working out a deal before the season begins. Windhorst doesn’t necessarily expect the two sides to reach a deal immediately, but believes there’s mutual interest in working something out. “There’s no time crunch. He doesn’t have to make a decision by August 5 or anything,” Windhorst said. “But I do think there is an expectation that the Lakers do make some sort of offer this week, or at least show their intention to make such an offer.”

Lakers Notes: LeBron, Buss, Pelinka, Davis, Fudge

Regardless of how much longer LeBron James spends with the Lakers or how his remaining time with the team plays out, the franchise intends to eventually retire his number, team owner Jeanie Buss tells Mark Medina of SportsKeeda.

“The standard for having your jersey retired as a Laker is when a player is inducted into the Hall of Fame. I have absolutely no doubt that LeBron will make it into the Basketball Hall of Fame,” Buss said. “When he does so, then we will retire his jersey. Knowing that he will make it into the Basketball Hall of Fame, he will have his Lakers jersey retired, no doubt about it.”

As Medina observes, James wore a No. 23 jersey during his first three years with the Lakers and will switch back to No. 23 in 2023/24 after wearing No. 6 for the last two seasons. Buss wasn’t prepared to say whether the Lakers would eventually retire both numbers, but stressed that the team would still retire LeBron’s jersey even if he doesn’t finish his career with the franchise.

“It would mean a lot (if LeBron retires as a Laker). But it won’t change his contributions to Lakers history,” Buss said. “… A player like Shaquille O’Neal has meant so much to Lakers history, but he wasn’t a Laker when he retired from the NBA. But that didn’t change what his part of Lakers history was. When he retired from the NBA, we retired his Lakers jersey.”

Here’s more on the Lakers:

  • In her full interview with Medina, Buss addressed a wide range of Lakers-related topics, including her thoughts on the team’s finish in 2022/23, Rob Pelinka‘s performance, and much more. Regarding Pelinka, Buss explained why she stood by the club’s head of basketball operations when he was facing criticism for the acquisition of Russell Westbrook: “I always felt then and now that Rob was the right person to be in charge of our front office. I continued to do so. Every decision that is made isn’t always the perfect one. But it’s the decision you make after that that counts. We had a roster that didn’t work and wasn’t working. But you can’t change things overnight in the NBA. But you can set yourself up by making the next right decision. That’s exactly what Rob did. … Every decision, you have the opportunity to make the next right decision. That’s what Rob has proven.”
  • Asked about a possible contract extension for Anthony Davis, Buss declined to discuss the subject in any depth. However, in deferring to Pelinka, she hinted that she’d be on board with a new deal for Davis: “Rob said it best. Our intention is that we want to keep continuity with our team. I’ll leave it at that.”
  • The two-way contract that undrafted rookie Alex Fudge signed with the Lakers will cover two years rather than one, Hoops Rumors has learned. Fudge is the sixth player to sign a two-year two-way deal this offseason, as our tracker shows.

Pacific Notes: A. Davis, Kings, Bol, Ayton

As of August 4, Lakers star Anthony Davis will become eligible for a contract extension that could tack on three additional years to the two remaining on his current contract.

Although it remains to be seen whether or not the Lakers will offer him the maximum salary for those three years or if the two sides will reach an agreement quickly once Davis becomes extension-eligible, ESPN’s Dave McMenamin is confident that the two sides will be able to work out a deal sooner or later.

“I am not too concerned about how this thing plays out,” McMenamin said during an appearance on Zach Lowe’s Lowe Post podcast. “Whether the max amount of year, the max amount of numbers are reached, that remains to be seen. That will be figured out between (agent) Rich Paul and (Lakers head of basketball operations) Rob Pelinka and (Lakers owner) Jeanie Buss and the like. But where things stand right now, I expect some sort of agreement to be reached. … I’m fairly confident that Anthony Davis will be coming into training camp on an extended deal.”

Currently, both Davis and LeBron James are on guaranteed contracts through 2023/24, with player options for the ’24/25 season. James won’t be extension-eligible before next summer, so even if they’re able to lock up AD to a new deal this offseason, the Lakers won’t necessarily have any certainty on LeBron beyond the coming season.

Here’s more from around the Pacific:

  • Jason Anderson of The Sacramento Bee examines what the Kings‘ depth chart might look like in 2023/24, observing that the team’s starting lineup will probably remain unchanged from last season. Anderson also considers candidates for Sacramento’s final two-way slot, suggesting that Summer League standout Jordan Ford is one option if big man Neemias Queta doesn’t return on a two-way deal.
  • A handful of rotation spots will likely be up for grabs in Phoenix this offseason, so the newest member of the Suns‘ roster, Bol Bol, should have an opportunity to prove that he deserves a regular role and is worthy of more than a minimum-salary contract next summer, writes Duane Rankin of The Arizona Republic. Rankin explores where Bol might fit on the team’s depth chart, noting that he could battle frontcourt players like Keita Bates-Diop, Drew Eubanks, and Chimezie Metu for minutes.
  • Suns center Deandre Ayton, who has been the subject of some trade rumors and has faced criticism for his up-and-down play, is looking to “change the narrative” this offseason, he tells Eyewitness Bahama News (Twitter video link). “Mainly what I’ve been working on five or six days a week since we’ve lost is just motivating myself to change the narrative of what people think about me,” Ayton said (hat tip to Rankin of The Arizona Republic). “… Just unlock whatever it is and just completely just focus on me and change the whole thing.”

Pacific Notes: Paul, LeBron, Davis, Reddish, Queta

Chris Paul doesn’t know what his role with the Warriors will be, but he seems ready for anything the team asks him to do, writes Kendra Andrews of ESPN. The 38-year-old point guard said he hasn’t talked to coach Steve Kerr or any other Golden State officials about how he’ll be used in a backcourt that already features Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson. There’s a chance he might come off the bench for the first time in his long career.

“At the end of the day, it’s basketball,” Paul said. “I’m going into a situation with a bunch of guys who’ve been playing together for a long time. I’m not as worried about it as everybody else is. … We’ll figure all of that stuff out at camp. You don’t have the answers right now. We’ll practice, and I’m sure there will be things I’ve got to learn about them, they’ve got to learn about me, but that’s the case with any team.”

Paul admitted being surprised by the offseason deals that sent him from the Suns to the Wizards and then the Warriors. He had a brief workout Sunday with Curry as the long-time rivals practiced together for the first time in 14 years.

“There are times when you get a chance to reflect,” Paul said. “Even working out today, we were laughing. … It’s a great opportunity and a blessing to be doing this at our age, because he ain’t young either.”

Paul only has one guaranteed year left on his contract, but when asked if he plans to continue playing beyond next season, he responded, “No question,” tweets Anthony Slater of The Athletic.

There’s more from the Pacific Division:

  • Lakers general manager Rob Pelinka has been encouraged by the progress of LeBron James and Anthony Davis, who both played through injuries in the postseason, per Jovan Buha of The Athletic. Pelinka told reporters he can’t address the specifics of an extension for Davis, who will become eligible for a new deal on August 4, but he spoke highly of what the big man has contributed to the team.
  • The Lakers are hoping assistant coach Chris Jent will bring out the best in free agent addition Cam Reddish, Buha adds. Jent was an assistant with the Hawks when Reddish broke into the league. “I think all the tools are there for Cam,” Pelinka said. “… “This was someone who was a (top-10) pick in the draft just a few years ago. So it’s there, and I’m excited for him to show it.”
  • Neemias Queta is willing to accept a two-way contract for the third straight season if it keeps him on the Kings‘ roster, according to Jason Anderson of The Sacramento Bee. Queta is currently a restricted free agent after receiving a $2MM qualifying offer from the team last month. That QO only includes a small partial guarantee.

Lakers Notes: Ham, Davis, Hood-Schifino, Reaves

Lakers coach Darvin Ham is feeling good about his team’s title chances after a successful offseason, writes Mark Medina of The Sporting Tribune. L.A. was able to add Gabe Vincent, Taurean Prince, Cam Reddish and Jaxson Hayes while keeping Austin Reaves, Rui Hachimura, D’Angelo Russell and Jarred Vanderbilt on team-friendly contracts.

“Our franchise has that tag of chasing down stars and trying to acquire the best possible talent across the board. But sometimes I think the way the game is trending, it’s all about cohesiveness,” Ham said. “It’s not just about winning right now. It’s about being able to win right now and have sustainability pieces.”

Ham believes having depth and the right complementary players is more important than adding a third star to LeBron James and Anthony Davis, Medina states. Ham is willing to let any battles for playing time be worked out once training camp begins.

“There’s a lot of competition in the building. We have to let all of this stuff play out.” Ham said. “We’re just cracking into July, man. We don’t have to start until October. They’ll get an answer pretty soon on September 29th.”

There’s more from Los Angeles:

  • Davis will become eligible for an extension on August 4, but the Lakers may be reluctant to give him the maximum amount he can earn, according to Sean Deveney of Heavy.com. Although Davis is among the league’s best players, he missed 26 games last season and health will become a bigger concern now that he has turned 30. An Eastern Conference executive speculates that the Lakers might prefer to take their chances with Davis in free agency if he exercises an early termination option after next season. “There will be a bit more money on the market in 2024,” the executive said. “That would make them nervous. But nervous enough to give (Davis) $60 million a year? I doubt that. Because the Pacers aren’t giving him $60 million per year and you do not want to bid against yourself. It’s got to be reasonable for both sides. If Davis would play ball and sign for less, two years and $80 million or something, then maybe something gets done.”
  • First-round pick Jalen Hood-Schifino had his lowest-scoring game of the summer on Friday, but the Lakers want him to concentrate more on play-making and especially defense, per Khobi Price of The Orange County Register. “That’s going to be his calling card early,” said Summer League coach JD DuBois. “Can you guard point of attack, get into the ball, pursue and guard without fouling? As long as he can progress in those areas, we have enough guys on offense to where he’ll be able to fit in. Defense will be that foundation for him.”
  • Steve Kerr’s battles with Reaves impressed the Warriors coach enough to add him to Team USA’s FIBA World Cup roster, Price adds in a separate piece. Kerr explained that he was looking for versatility, size and play-making for the international tournament, and Reaves provides all those things.

Lakers Notes: Davis, Russell, Paul, Draft

A primary goal for the Lakers this offseason will be signing Anthony Davis to an extension, Brian Windhorst of ESPN said earlier this week on Get Up (YouTube link).

As Windhorst notes, Davis won’t be extension-eligible until August, at which point the Lakers could offer him a three-year contract worth a projected $167.5MM. If the two sides can’t reach an agreement on a new deal, Davis could enter unrestricted free agency in 2024 if he declines his $43.2MM player option for 2024/25.

At this time, Windhorst also believes the Lakers will continue on their stated path of re-signing their own key free agents — including Austin Reaves and Rui Hachimura — instead of creating cap room in pursuit of Kyrie Irving. Windhorst thinks the mostly outcome for Irving is re-signing with the Mavericks, noting that they can pay him much more money than L.A. can.

Here’s more on the Lakers:

  • Guard D’Angelo Russell‘s stock seems to have taken a hit after a poor showing in the Western Conference Finals against the Nuggets. He will be an unrestricted free agent this summer if he doesn’t sign an extension (he’s eligible for a two-year deal). While he might not be the Lakers’ top priority, ESPN’s Zach Lowe suggested on his podcast that a reunion may still be in the cards (hat tip to RealGM). “I actually think there are corners of the organization that would still like D’Angelo Russell back just because they have a void at that position,” Lowe said. “They need a point guard.” Jovan Buha of The Athletic said last week that he thought Russell would most likely end up back in L.A., perhaps on a two- or three-year deal worth around $20MM annually, though it’s far from a lock.
  • Chris Paul‘s uncertain status with the Suns has rivals speculating about his future, and the Lakers are atop the list of his possible suitors, multiple league executives tell Sean Deveney of Heavy.com. “Lakers first,” one Eastern Conference GM texted. “It’s not definite, a lot can happen. But you’d have to start there. He always had (the) dream of being a Laker (and) playing with LBJ (LeBron James).” ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski recently cited the Lakers as a potential destination as well, noting that Paul lives in Los Angeles during the offseason.
  • The Lakers will be hosting a pre-draft workout on Thursday, tweets Brad Turner of The Los Angeles Times. The six featured prospects are D’Moi Hodge (Missouri), Caleb McConnell (Rutgers), JT Shumate (Toledo), Logan Johnson (Saint Mary’s), Damion Baugh (TCU) and Matthew Mayer (Illinois). The Lakers currently control two picks in the 2023 NBA draft, Nos. 17 and 47.

LeBron James Mulling Possibility Of Retirement

Following the Lakers‘ elimination from the 2023 playoffs on Monday night, superstar forward LeBron James is contemplating the possibility of retirement, league sources tell Chris Haynes of Bleacher Report.

During his postgame media session, James cryptically told reporters that he has “a lot to think about” this offseason (Twitter link via Jovan Buha of The Athletic). Haynes subsequently reported that LeBron is mulling retirement, which the 38-year-old himself confirmed to Dave McMenamin of ESPN.

James told McMenamin that he has to consider “if I want to continue to play.” Pressed on whether he’d really retire at this point, LeBron replied, “I got to think about it.”

A 19-time All-Star, James put up his usual huge numbers during the 2022/23 season, averaging 28.9 points, 8.3 rebounds, and 6.8 assists per game in 55 appearances (35.5 MPG) while shooting 50.0% from the field.

He missed time and was affected in the second half by a torn tendon in his right foot, but still appeared in all 15 of the Lakers’ games in the postseason, averaging 23.5 PPG, 9.9 RPG, and 6.3 APG. The team’s season came to an end in the Western Conference Finals, where the Nuggets completed a 4-0 sweep.

As he weighs his future following a postseason that McMenamin describes as “taxing,” James will have to consider next steps for that foot injury. Asked if it might require offseason surgery, LeBron didn’t rule out the possibility, telling ESPN that he’ll undergo an MRI to see how his tendon has healed.

Regardless of whether or not surgery is required, James believes he would be able to get back to his usual All-NBA level with a full summer of rehab work.

“Because I’m still better than 90% of the NBA,” he said. “Maybe 95.”

James has at least one year and $46.7MM remaining on his contract with the Lakers, with a $50.4MM player option for the 2024/25 season. He has spoken in the past about wanting to remain in the NBA until at least ’24/25, when his son Bronny James will be eligible to enter the league. LeBron has repeatedly expressed a desire to play with Bronny, so Monday’s comments represent a potential change in direction.

When informed of James’ comments after Monday’s loss, Anthony Davis was initially surprised, according to McMenamin, but then recalled a prior conversation he had with his superstar teammate. According to Davis, when the two Lakers forwards were talking about possibly playing in the 2024 Paris Olympics, LeBron told AD that he may have already retired by that point.

For what it’s worth, one person familiar with James’ thinking who spoke to Mark Medina of The Sporting Tribune is skeptical that the future Hall of Famer will really retire this offseason.

Multiple theories are already emerging among NBA writers, with James L. Edwards III of The Athletic (Twitter link) among those to speculate that LeBron could sit one season before returning to play with Bronny in 2024.

Kevin O’Connor of The Ringer (Twitter link) wonders if James’ comments are – at least in part – a negotiating tactic to push the Lakers further all-in on next year’s roster. Currently, only James, Davis, and Max Christie have guaranteed contracts, so many offseason moves would be necessary to fill out the supporting cast. One path the franchise could consider revisiting, O’Connor observes, is its pursuit of LeBron’s former teammate Kyrie Irving, who will be a free agent.

While it would be a surprise if James ultimately decides to hang up his sneakers this summer, his remarks on Monday ensure that it will be one of the biggest question marks hanging over the NBA’s offseason until he makes a decision one way or the other.