Moritz Wagner

International Notes: Germany, Italy, FAs, Carmelo, NBL, J. Parker

The German national team, winner of the 2023 FIBA World Cup, has officially announced a 16-man preliminary roster for the 2024 Olympics, as Eurohoops relays.

The 16-man group features all 12 players who were part of the World Cup roster, including veteran NBAers like Dennis Schröder, Franz Wagner, Moritz Wagner, and Daniel Theis. Four additional players will also be competing for spots on the 12-man Olympic squad: Oscar Da Silva (Barcelona), Leon Kratzer (Paris), Louis Olinde (ALBA Berlin), and Nick Weiler-Babb (Bayern Munich).

Meanwhile, the Italian national team has announced a far more expansive preliminary roster, identifying 30 players who will be in the mix for spots on the 12-man squad that will compete in an Olympic qualifying tournament in Puerto Rico this summer.

As previously reported, Pistons forward Simone Fontecchio won’t be part of Italy’s 2024 roster since he’s recovering from toe surgery. However, as Eurohoops notes, the 30-man group features a handful of names that will be familiar to NBA fans, including Bucks forward Danilo Gallinari and former NBA players such as Nico Mannion and Nicolo Melli.

Here are a few more odds and ends from around the international basketball world:

  • Could Gallinari or Furkan Korkmaz end up signing with a European team when their NBA contracts expire this summer? Johnny Askounis of Eurohoops identifies 10 NBA free agents, including Gallinari and Korkmaz, who are potential candidates to make their way overseas in the coming weeks or months.
  • Carmelo Anthony has been named the Global Ambassador for the National Basketball League’s Next Stars program, Australia’s top basketball league announced on Monday in a press release. Like TNT analyst Kenny Smith, who was named the head of the Next Stars initiative back in April, Anthony will also join the ownership group of an NBL expansion team. The 10-time NBA All-Star spoke to Marc J. Spears of Andscape about his decision to get involved with the NBL and his goal of eventually owning a stake in an NBA franchise.
  • Former No. 2 overall pick Jabari Parker, who last played in the NBA in January 2022 and spent the 2023/24 season with FC Barcelona, teared up when asked in a media session about his first year playing outside of the U.S. (Twitter video link via BasketNews). As Marc Mundet relays (via Twitter), the former NBA forward explained later why he became overcome with emotion. “It was all happiness,” Parker said. “It was gratitude for this organization for giving me an opportunity. … Because of this place, I found my love for the game again. I wasn’t sure if I would play basketball again, but because of FC Barcelona, the fans, my teammates, my coaches, my friends here, I’ve found that love again and that passion.”

And-Ones: Nunn, Hield, Harris, Westbrook, Wagner, Brazil Roster

Former NBA guard Kendrick Nunn signed a two-year contract extension with Panathinaikos in Greece earlier this month, but he’s not ruling out an NBA return, he told Vangelis Papadimitriou of Eurohoops.net. The contract includes NBA out clauses, under specific conditions.

“I’ll be honored to go back. You never know,” he said.

In the meantime, he hopes to bring multiple EuroLeague titles to his current team. Nunn was named to the All-EuroLeague First Team in his first season with the club.

“To play here with one of the biggest clubs in Europe. Playing at a high level. With great guys in the locker room that I enjoy playing with and bonding. It wasn’t hard. I love Panathinaikos and Greece,” he said.

We have more from around the basketball world:

  • Which impending free agents hurt their stock during the postseason? HoopsHype’s Frank Urbina identifies four players — Buddy Hield, Tobias Harris, Russell Westbrook and Moritz Wagner — who fall in that category. Westbrook has the ability to exercise a player option for next season, while Wagner’s deal includes a team option.
  • Brazil has announced a roster of 17 players for its Olympic qualifier tournament in Riga, Latvia. The roster will eventually be pared to 12 players. Gui Santos, who played 23 games with the Warriors as a rookie this season, made the list. Raul Neto, Cristiano Felicio, Didi Louzada and Bruno Caboclo are among former NBA players who are also on the preliminary roster, Sportando relays.
  • In case you missed it, Taylor Jenkins, Willie Green and Chauncey Billups top the list of coaches on the hot seat next season.

Magic Notes: Chippy Play, Fultz, Game 1 Flop, Lineup, Mosley

Game 1 between the Magic and Cavaliers had an edge to it and it could get even more chippier as the series goes along, The Athletic’s Josh Robbins opines. Orlando’s Markelle Fultz was assessed a Flagrant-1 foul and the Cavs’ Georges Niang received a technical foul for an altercation during the series opener.

“Either he was going to hit me first or I was going to hit him,” Fultz said. “So, I just took the initiative to body up, not trying to hurt nobody or anything like that but just deliver a hit, make it be known that we’re not soft.”

Cleveland’s Isaac Okoro received a technical foul for shoving Moritz Wagner during another incident.

“We love that stuff,” Magic guard Cole Anthony said. “Especially for us, we’re a hard-nosed team. We want the game to be physical. So, I think that for us that works in our favor.”

We have more on the Magic:

  • The Magic tried to quickly move on from their 97-83 loss in Game 1, in which they shot a woeful 32.6% from the field. “It’s the first game,” center Wendell Carter said. “We don’t want to overreact to anything. The first game on the road, we got to see what kind of game they want to play. I think we’re good. I thought we did really good defensively. I think offensively we struggled. Holding a team under 100 is always a good defensive outing.”
  • There will be no changes to the starting lineup for Game 2 tonight, Robbins tweets. Jalen Suggs, Gary Harris, Franz Wagner, Paolo Banchero and Jonathan Isaac will take the court for the opening tip.
  • In a subscriber-only piece, Jason Beede of the Orlando Sentinel details how Jamahl Mosley‘s methods propelled his team to the postseason, comparing and contrasting him to other recent first time head coaches who flopped on rebuilding teams.

Seventeen More Players Become Trade-Eligible

Today is Monday, January 15, which means that a total of 17 players who signed free agent contracts meeting specific criteria this past offseason are now eligible to be traded.

Most offseason signees became trade-eligible on December 15, but players who met the following criteria were ineligible to be moved for an extra month:

  1. The player re-signed with his previous team.
  2. He got a raise of at least 20%.
  3. His salary is worth more than the minimum.
  4. His team was over the cap and used Bird or Early Bird rights to sign him.

The following players met that criteria and are eligible to be traded as of Monday:

(* Players marked with an asterisk have the ability to veto trades.)

Most of the players on NBA rosters are now eligible to be moved, though a small handful still can’t be dealt. That group includes Heat guard Dru Smith, who becomes trade-eligible on Monday, Hornets guard Ish Smith (trade-eligible on January 24), Lakers star Anthony Davis (trade-eligible on February 6), and Pistons forward Kevin Knox (trade-eligible on Feb. 8).

There are also several players who won’t become trade-eligible prior to this season’s February 8 deadline, including stars like Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kawhi Leonard, and Jaylen Brown. Players on 10-day contracts are also ineligible to be dealt.

Southeast Notes: Isaac, Wagners, Washington, Adebayo

Last week, Magic forward Jonathan Isaac played back-to-back games for the first time in nearly four years, writes Jason Beede of The Orlando Sentinel.

I felt good and I’ve just been trying to do a better job of getting my rest when I need it,” Isaac said. “I definitely feel like my legs are getting back under me and I’m starting to just run free and jump free out there.”

Isaac, who missed two whole seasons — 2020/21 and ’21/22 — while recovering from a torn ACL, was limited to 11 games last season. He has already exceeded that total in ’23/24, appearing in 13 of Orlando’s 15 contests, including Wednesday’s vs. Denver — the second of another back-to-back set.

Still just 26 years old, Isaac is averaging a modest 13.7 minutes per night off the bench. But he’s recording 1.4 blocks and 1.0 steal per game in those limited minutes, and his coach and teammates have lauded Isaac’s defensive abilities, referring to him as “special” and “amazing” on that end of the court, according to Beede.

He’s our defensive anchor,” guard Gary Harris said. “And we still have guys out right now so we can be a very scary team defensively, especially when everybody gets healthy.”

The 9-5 Magic have the top defense in the league early on this season, holding a 106.4 defensive rating. With Isaac on the court, that figure drops to a remarkable 94.0.

Here’s more from the Southeast:

  • Jake Fischer of Yahoo Sports details how Franz Wagner and Moritz Wagner — brothers who won a gold medal at the World Cup with the German national team — are helping turn the Magic into a possible playoff contender. “It was purely about, how can we all come together and do something that’s greater than each individual by themselves?” Franz said of the World Cup. “I think we’re creating that same vibe here in Orlando.”
  • P.J. Washington has started for most of his five-year career with the Hornets, but he was moved to the bench once Miles Bridges returned from a suspension. He took the move in stride, per Roderick Boone of The Charlotte Observer. “At the end of the day it’s a team game,” Washington said. “When we win, we win as team and when we lose, we lose as a team. For me, I just try to come out here and try to be a professional and do whatever coach asks me to do. Whether it’s play the ‘5’ play the ‘3,’ play the ‘4.’ I’m just trying to do everything I can to win. It’s as simple as that.” Washington was a late scratch for Wednesday’s game against the Wizards due to right foot discomfort, the Hornets announced (via Twitter).
  • Heat center Bam Adebayo was ruled out of Wednesday’s game against Cleveland due to hip discomfort, tweets Ira Winderman of The South Florida Sun Sentinel. With Kevin Love also out for personal reasons, Miami turned to Thomas Bryant and Orlando Robinson to man the middle.

World Cup Notes: F. Wagner, Schröder, Top Players, Banchi

Germany’s Franz Wagner was thrilled not only to win a gold medal at the World Cup, but to be able to accomplish the feat while playing alongside his brother, writes Cesare Milanti of EuroHoops. Franz and Moritz Wagner are also teammates on the Magic, but their undefeated run through the World Cup field is the highlight of their careers.

“It’s special,” Franz Wagner said after Sunday’s win over Serbia. “Special to have our parents here too. This is so surreal, it doesn’t make sense that we are both on this team and we can enjoy it.”

Wagner appears to be fully recovered from a sprained ankle he suffered in Germany’s opening game. Although he missed the rest of pool play, he was back for the knockout round, scoring 22 points and grabbing five rebounds in a semifinal win over Team USA, then posting 19 points and seven rebounds in the gold medal contest.

“There were so many moments this year in so many games that the other team made a run, this game, the game before against the States,” he added. “We never let it slip, we just kept playing and kept staying together. That made a huge difference in all these games.”

There’s more from the World Cup:

  • Tournament MVP Dennis Schröder hopes Germany’s success will lead to more exposure for basketball in his home country, per Aris Barkas of Eurohoops. The German team has become more successful in international competitions, but the games aren’t widely available to the public. “We first thought the tournament was going to be on the TV. Only the final was on the TV,” Schröder said. “Basketball is a great sport and I hope we can get our respect for what we are doing the last two years. I wish that every single game is on TV. Ten years ago when I started, we had Dirk Nowitzki but nobody knew who were the other guys on the team. Now we go to Japan and the Philippines and they know us. We hope to get this respect also in our country and get recognized.”
  • Schröder was a first-team selection by Brian Windhorst of ESPN on his list of the best players at the World Cup. Joining him on the first team are Team USA’s Anthony Edwards, Canada’s Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Slovenina’s Luka Doncic and Serbia’s Bogdan Bogdanovic. Making up Windhorst’s second team are the USA’s Mikal Bridges, Australia’s Josh Giddey, South Sudan’s Carlik Jones, Serbia’s Nikola Milutinov and the Dominican Republic’s Karl-Anthony Towns.
  • Luca Banchi was honored as the tournament’s best coach after leading Latvia to a fifth-place finish in its first-ever World Cup.

World Cup Final Notes: Germany, Schröder, Serbia, Bogdanovic

Raptors guard Dennis Schröder has helped lead the German national team to a perfect 7-0 record at the 2023 World Cup ahead of Sunday’s final against Serbia. Germany’s captain says he hopes he’s helping basketball become more popular in his home country, as Aris Barkas of Eurhoops relays.

I hope that basketball gets to be little bit more attractive and gets more attention,” Schröder said. “Because I’ve been here 10 years now, and from that point to this point, it’s a huge difference. And I’m glad that I can be a part of it. And try to put Germany, our country, on the map. And that’s the reason why I play a national team. I try to help others, like little guys coming up, same as me, 15 years ago. That they can make a difference take care of their families and play on big stages.”

The 30-year-old, who has averaged 17.9 points, 6.7 assists and 1.4 steals thus far at the tournament (27.9 minutes), says doesn’t feel nervous ahead of the gold medal game, according to Barkas.

I mean, when you play basketball, you compete on the highest level anyway,” said Schröder. “Every summer game, it’s the same game for me. Of course, it’s the World Cup, it’s a big honor to play in the finals. It’s something special, but at the end of the day, it’s still a game.”

Here’s more on tomorrow’s final:

  • Magic big man Moritz Wagner says Germany’s upset over Team USA in the semifinal was a major milestone for the country, writes Cesare Milanti of Eurohoops. “Germany just made the World Cup final… I think this is the biggest win in German basketball history,” said Wagner, who finished with 10 points on 3-of-5 shooting in 13 minutes in the victory.
  • Bogdan Bogdanovic has been Serbia’s best player at the World Cup, and he says he’s thrilled to have secured another medal for the national team, which can finish no worse than second place (silver). “I’m really happy and grateful, and also happy for this team,” the Hawks swingman said, per George Efkarpides of Eurhoops. “I know how much effort we put in since day one; the coach was really hard on us, it was tough for me too. Being out of the national team for a couple of years, I forgot how it is. That struggle. In the NBA you have a guy to bring you towels, this and that, here you kind of have to do everything by yourself. We went through all this and made it to the finals.” Asked about Finals MVP Nikola Jokic, who chose to rest this summer after winning the NBA title, Bogdanovic said the Serbian star “texts us after every game.”
  • Serbian head coach Svetislav Pesic led Germany to its lone EuroBasket gold medal in 1993. According to Barkas of Eurhoops, Pesic says he has fond memories of his time with the German Basketball Federation and respects the current group. “Both teams deserved to be in the final,” Pevic said. “Both teams demonstrated team basketball. I have, of course, and not only me but everybody, big respect for the German team. The German team is one team whose most important quality is continuity. They have played together for five years. This is a generational team and they played together excellently. They demonstrated one more time here in Manila.”

Contract Details: Okogie, Phillips, Schröder, Williams, Stewart, Wagner

Suns wing Josh Okogie received a Non-Bird deal when he re-signed with the team, according to Bobby Marks of ESPN (Twitter link). Rather than earning the veteran’s minimum, Okogie will make 20% above the minimum on his new two-year contract, which includes a second-year player option. His salary in 2023/24 is $2,815,937, while his ’24/25 player option is worth $2,956,734.

As Marks notes, the Suns have now signed six free agents to two-year contracts with second-year player options — Okogie joins Keita Bates-Diop, Drew Eubanks, Eric Gordon, Damion Lee, and Yuta Watanabe in that group. The other five players received minimum-salary deals.

The offers, which include some security beyond 2023/24, may have helped the Suns land their preferred targets on the free agent market. However, they’ll also increase the club’s total salary and end-of-season luxury tax bill. As we’ve previously outlined, the NBA covers of portion of veteran’s minimum salaries for players who sign for a single season, but not for players who sign multiyear minimum contracts.

For instance, Gordon would have earned a $3,196,448 salary in 2023/24 regardless of whether he signed for one year or two. But because he received a second year, Phoenix will be responsible for paying that full salary (and the accompanying tax penalty based on that full salary). On a one-year deal, the Suns would’ve paid Gordon a reduced amount ($2,019,706), with the league making up the difference.

Here are a few more contract details from around the NBA:

  • Julian Phillipsfirst NBA contract is a four-year deal, according to Marks (Twitter link), who says the Bulls second-round pick will earn $1.6MM in year one and the minimum in the following three seasons. The deal, which was completed using the NBA’s new second-round pick exception, will include a fourth-year team option but is guaranteed for the first three years. As Marks observes, Phillips will receive the second-most guaranteed money of any 2023 second-rounders who have signed so far, behind only No. 32 pick Jalen Pickett.
  • Dennis Schröder‘s two-year deal with the Raptors is worth the full mid-level amount, Hoops Rumors has confirmed: $12,405,000 in year one and $13,025,250 in year two. Grant Williams‘ fully guaranteed four-year contract with the Mavericks is also worth the exact amount of the full non-taxpayer mid-level exception ($53,341,500 in total), though Dallas acquired him via sign-and-trade and still has its MLE available.
  • Isaiah Stewart‘s four-year, $60MM extension with the Pistons and Moritz Wagner‘s two-year, $16MM deal with the Magic each have flat annual cap hits – $15MM each year for Stewart and $8MM each year for Wagner – with team options on the final season. As previously reported, Stewart’s deal also includes $1MM per year in incentives, so it could be worth up to $64MM. Meanwhile, as part of his agreement with Orlando, Wagner waived his right to veto a trade during the 2023/24 season, becoming the third player to do so under the new CBA.

Magic Re-Sign Moritz Wagner

JULY 11: The signing is official, the team’s PR department tweets. A league source tells Jason Beede of The Orlando Sentinel (Twitter link) that the second year of Wagner’s deal is a team option.


JULY 1: The Magic are re-signing unrestricted free agent forward/center Moritz Wagner, agent Jason Glushon tells ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski (Twitter link). Wagner will receive a two-year, $16MM contract, Woj adds.

Wagner, 26, has been a rotation regular for the Magic over the last two seasons, averaging 9.7 PPG, 4.1 RPG, and 1.4 APG on .499/.321/.826 shooting in 120 games (17.2 MPG).

Returning to Orlando will give Wagner the opportunity to continue playing alongside his brother Franz Wagner, who was the Magic’s lottery pick in 2021 and has emerged as a building block for the franchise.

Because Moritz has a minimum-salary cap hold and full Bird rights, the Magic will be able to use up all their cap room before going over the cap to complete his deal, tweets Yossi Gozlan of HoopsHype. Orlando could also still choose to operate as an over-the-cap team this season, since Joe Ingles‘ reported two-year, $22MM deal would fit into the mid-level exception.

It’s unclear whether the second year of Wagner’s contract will be guaranteed. The Magic have made a habit during the last two offseasons of signing free agents to two-year deals with only one guaranteed year, taking that route with Mohamed Bamba, Gary Harris, and (reportedly) Ingles.

Free Agent Stock Watch: Southeast Division

For the rest of the regular season and postseason, Hoops Rumors is taking a closer look at players who will be free agents or could become free agents during the 2023 offseason. We consider whether their stock is rising or falling due to their performance and other factors. Today, we’re focusing on a handful of Southeast players.


Kristaps Porzingis, F/C, Wizards

  • 2022/23: $33.8MM
  • 2023/24: $36MM player option
  • Stock: Up

I think Porzingis has been the Wizards’ best player this season. You could interpret that as a backhanded compliment since they aren’t very good, but I don’t mean it to be — he’s having a career year.

Through 62 games (32.6 MPG) in 2022/23, the 27-year-old is averaging 23.0 PPG, 8.4 RPG, 2.6 APG, 0.9 SPG and 1.5 BPG on .492/.375/.849 shooting. The points, assists and steals per game represent career highs, and he’s scoring more efficiently than ever, recording career bests in FG%, 2PT% (.556), free throw attempts (6.5 per game), free throws made (5.5) and true shooting percentage (.621).

Porzingis is also playing solid defense, with opponents shooting just 56% at the rim against him, per NBA.com‘s data — a strong mark. He has generally been an active deterrent, and it’s tough to shoot over someone 7’3″.

The biggest question mark surrounding Porzingis has always been his health, as he could surpass the 70-game mark for just the second time in his career this season. Maybe something in the three-year, $105MM range could be within reach – I’d be hesitant to go out four or five years.

Kevin Love, F/C, Heat

  • 2022/23: $28.9MM + $3.1MM
  • 2023/24: UFA
  • Stock: Down

Love was the runner-up for Sixth Man of the Year in 2021/22 after putting up 13.6 PPG, 7.2 RPG and 2.2 APG on .430/.392/.838 shooting in 72 games (22.5 MPG) for Cleveland. He had a solid start this season, averaging 11.3 PPG, 7.4 RPG and 2.6 APG on .425/.409/.861 shooting in 15 games (21.3 MPG).

Unfortunately, he sustained a thumb injury that impacted his outside shooting – a huge reason why he had been an effective bench piece. Over the following 26 games (19.3 MP), he averaged just 6.8 PPG, 6.5 RPG and 1.4 APG on .364/.308/.926 shooting. The Cavs subsequently pulled him from the rotation, but he still wanted a chance to play, so the two sides reached a buyout agreement, with Love catching on with the Heat.

In 14 games (21.4 MPG) with Miami, he’s averaging 7.8 PPG, 6.2 RPG and 2.0 APG on .383/.286/.850 shooting. Love has always been a very good defensive rebounder, and he is a terrific outlet passer. However, he is an overall poor defensive player, he’ll be 35 years old before next season begins, and he has a lengthy injury history.

It’s hard to envision him getting more than a one-year contract in the offseason, and I’d be very surprised if it’s for more than the taxpayer mid-level exception (projected to be $7MM).

Max Strus, G/F, Heat

  • 2022/23: Minimum salary
  • 2023/24: UFA
  • Stock: Down

Strus is already a success story as an undrafted free agent who originally caught on with Boston and then Chicago on two-way deals before tearing his ACL in December 2019. He worked his way back through the G League and caught on with Miami before ‘20/21, inking another two-way deal.

He impressed the Heat enough to earn a two-year, minimum-salary contract, and had a terrific season in ‘21/22, averaging 10.6 PPG and 3.0 RPG while shooting 41% from deep on high volume in 68 games (23.3 MPG). Strus was so important that he was starting for the Heat in the playoffs as they came very close to making it back to the Finals.

As with Love, Strus started the season well, averaging 15.1 PPG and 3.8 RPG on .460/.378/.864 shooting 15 games (33 MPG). He has been in a prolonged shooting slump for much of the rest of the season though, averaging 10.9 PPG, 3.2 RPG and 2.3 APG on .387/.328/.892 shooting over the past 57 games (27.9 MPG).

Strus isn’t a great defender, but he’s not a liability. The main reason he plays is to make timely cuts and space the floor. He’s shooting just 34% from three this season.

He’s only 26, so I have no doubt that he will get a multiyear contract and a raise on his minimum salary. But his stock is definitely down compared to last year.

Moritz Wagner, F/C, Magic

  • 2022/23: Minimum salary
  • 2023/24: UFA
  • Stock: Up

Part of the reason Orlando was comfortable trading Mohamed Bamba at the deadline is that he had been supplanted in the rotation by Wagner, a fifth-year big man who played his college ball at Michigan. Wagner missed the first 18 games of the season while recovering from a foot injury, but has played well since he returned.

A talented, energetic and decisive scorer, Wagner is averaging a career-high 11.1 PPG along with 4.7 RPG on .496/.310/.844 shooting in 51 games (20.2 MPG). He has played well as a fill-in starter, averaging 14.0 PPG, 6.9 RPG and 1.1 SPG on .525/.339/.869 shooting in 17 games (26.7 MPG).

At 6’11” and 245 pounds, Wagner has an interesting blend of ball skills and footwork for a center. He’s quite effective at using pump fakes to drive and spin his way to the basket, frequently drawing fouls. He’s converting 62.8% of his twos and 84.4% of his 3.4 free throw attempts per game, which is why his true shooting percentage is well above average (62.8%) even though he’s only shooting 31% from deep.

The 25-year-old has outplayed his minimum-salary deal, and the Magic have his Bird rights if they want to bring him back. Wagner is not a rim protector and he’s just an OK rebounder. Perhaps something in the range of $5-8MM per season could be within reach.

Kelly Oubre, G/F, Hornets

  • 2022/23: $12.6MM
  • 2023/24: UFA
  • Stock: Neutral

Oubre brings prototypical size on the wing at 6’7″ with an enormous 7’2″ wingspan. He’s an excellent athlete and excels in the open court.

Through 48 games (32.2 MPG), the 27-year-old is averaging a career-high 20.3 PPG along with 5.2 RPG and 1.4 SPG. He missed a good chunk of time after undergoing hand surgery in January.

The scoring looks nice, but it’s paired with below average efficiency, as Oubre has posted a .431/.319/.760 slash line for a 53.4 TS%. He has also recorded just 54 assists against 819 field goal attempts in ‘22/23, a remarkably low percentage. That isn’t an aberration – he’s only averaged 1.0 APG in 527 career games (25.8 MPG).

As a free agent in 2021, Oubre signed a two-year, $24.6MM contract with the Hornets, with the second year only guaranteed at $5MM. He has spoken multiple times about wanting to remain in Charlotte. I find it hard to believe he’ll get much more than he’s currently making on a short-term deal, but he hasn’t hurt his value either.