If the Cavaliers had received assurances from LeBron James that he intends to remain with the franchise beyond the 2017/18 season, their approach to a Kyrie Irving trade might be much different, writes ESPN’s Adrian Wojnarowski. While the Cavs certainly haven’t given up hope of James remaining in Cleveland, the franchise wants to use an Irving trade to protect itself against his possible departure — that means focusing on acquiring a young potential star, rather than targeting veteran help for LeBron.
Initially, the Cavs’ desire in an Irving trade was to acquire young players and picks that could help the team down the road and to get pieces that could help the club contend immediately. However, that kind of massive return may not be available for the star point guard, forcing the Cavaliers to choose one path or the other. And with LeBron unwilling to commit, the Cavs are leaning toward prioritizing long-term pieces over short-term help.
As Wojnarowski details, Josh Jackson (Suns), Jayson Tatum (Celtics), Jamal Murray (Nuggets), and even Kristaps Porzingis (Knicks) are among the young players the Cavaliers have their eye on in trade talks. In his own piece on the situation in Cleveland, Steve Kyler of Basketball Insiders agrees that those four teams – Phoenix, Boston, Denver, and New York – are mentioned most frequently as trade partners, and continue to have discussions with the Cavs.
Here’s plenty more on the Irving situation:
- According to both Wojnarowski and Kyler, teams around the NBA believe that the Cavaliers will ramp up trade talks and get more serious about moving Irving in September, with training camps approaching.
- The Spurs have interest in Irving, but the fact that the Cavs are prioritizing young potential stars over veteran help means Cleveland doesn’t have much interest in the likes of LaMarcus Aldridge, Tony Parker, or Danny Green, says Wojnarowski.
- Although the Cavaliers are intrigued by Tatum, the Celtics have yet to make an official offer for Irving and the two sides haven’t formally discussed this year’s No. 3 overall pick, according to Wojnarowski. Adam Himmelsbach of The Boston Globe adds (via Twitter) that Boston has remained in touch with the Cavs throughout the process.
- The idea of including Porzingis in an Irving offer is currently a “non-starter” for the Knicks, per Wojnarowski. However, Woj adds there may still be some lingering tension between Porzingis and the franchise, and teams are wondering how emphatic the Knicks’ “no” really is — especially if the Cavaliers would be willing to take on Joakim Noah‘s contract.
- Wojnarowski reports that the Bucks have shown interest in Irving. However, with Giannis Antetokounmpo obviously untouchable, Milwaukee may not have a young star who makes sense for the Cavs.
- Although the Clippers have been mentioned as a possible landing spot for Irving, a league source tells Kyler that L.A. doesn’t appear to have the right combination of assets to appeal to the Cavs — a third team would be necessary, and even that may not be enough to make the Clips a serious contender for Irving.
the Celtics need to be in on this. Isaiah, Tatum, Brooklyn pick and filler as a starting point. I like Isaiah but Kyrie is beyond his abilities
Don’t see Boston giving up anything close to that much. Thomas, Brown and then the Celtics own first round pick.
Boston would need to give up more in order to match salaries. Plus, why would they give up Thomas and additional assets for Irving when Kyrie and Isaiah are essentially the same player
@PhillyFan because Irving IS much better than Thomas, otherwise, there would be no discussion at all about moving Thomas nor wonderment as to whether they should offer Thomas a max contract. Irving is no defensive wizard but he IS a better player on both sides of the ball just by virtue of his bigger size. PGs can’t physically dominate Irving the way they can Thomas.
He isn’t so much better to warrant the Celtics giving up two more role players. Irving is just a 6’2 Isaiah. They’re both elite scorers and while Kyrie cannot be overpowered as easily as Thomas by opposing players, Kyrie is scored on just as easily
Irving is a better and stronger finisher at the rim. He’s 3 years younger. He’s signed for 2 years and a PO whereas IT is a FA. I also believe that the Celtics don’t currently hold bird rights with IT. They will after next season but if traded now for Irving (which comes W/ his bird rights) then that means the Celtics can extend Irving to the max regardless of cap space but the Cavs, if desired to extend IT, couldn’t. They would burn cap space. There’s an advantage to Irving’s contract situation that needs to be compensated.
Also, even though it doesn’t help on-court, Irving’s brand and star power is much larger than IT’s. His jersey sales were #5 vs IT @ #7 despite playing in a market much smaller (Northeast Ohio has a population of about 4.3 mil vs New England which is about 14.5 mil). Also, Kyrie has is #2 behind only LBJ in signature shoe sales via Nike. His brand is just bigger. Bigger brand. More drawing power. That has value to a franchize.
Kyrie’s contract situation doesn’t matter to the Celtics. They have no cap space whether they trade for Kyrie or resign IT to the max after this season. They would also have to trade Crowder plus Tatum/Brown and maybe even a pick. It’s simply not worry it
And Isaiah’s rise from the last pick to an all-star at only 5’9 has just as much drawing power as Kyrie.
The idea of Irving for Thomas makes for an interesting story because they were the #1 overall and the very last player drafted in the 2011 draft.
However, #s don’t lie. Irving is a far more established brand than Thomas and strictly for merch-sales only, Irving is more valuable. Let me make this clear. I don’t expect that to be a MAJOR factor for Ainge who, rightfully so, is more concerned with adding value on the court.
@Phillyfan
“Kyrie’s contract situation doesn’t matter to the Celtics”.
That’s a silly statement. Of course the fact that Irving comes with a minimum of 2 years of control and cost certainty matters. The Celtics would be giving up assets to acquire Irving. The fact they would have 2 years of control vs 1 is an obvious benefit.
“They have no cap space whether they trade for Kyrie or resign IT to the max after this season”.
It comes down to “who would the Celtics rather give a max contract out to”? It would seem that most NBA experts question whether or not it would be prudent to sign a 5’9 PG thru his age 29-34 seasons. I doubt most teams would have the same hesitation to do so with Irving who, as mentioned, has a more NBA PG body and is 3 years younger than Thomas.
“They would also have to trade Crowder plus Tatum/Brown and maybe even a pick. It’s simply not worry it”.
If the Celtics were intent on keeping team salary flat (improving the team but not taking on significant salary) then they would probably have to jettison players off the roster to increase IT’s salary from the $6 mil he makes now to the $25-$30 mil he might get for a max deal (assuming that’s what IT might demand based on other offers from NBA teams if he becomes a FA). That would mean a plus $20-$24 mil increase and it’s up to the Celtics if they want to add that salary or offset it by subtracting other players. In essence, if you look at it as purely a +/- roster change, the Celtics had to move Olynyk, Bradley, 2nd rnd pick plus over $100 mil in cash to acquire Gordon Hayward and Morris.
With Ainge it is hard to predict. One motivation for dealing IT might be so he doesn’t have to be the Grinch that says no max… and when push comes to shove, wants to move on regardless.
Cavs had an IT once… World B. Free!! If James leaves, Cavs might be bidding for the new Free…
Kyrie is only this good with LeBron, IT is this good on his own. If a tiny guy like IT is getting a max deal (and there is no doubt he will) then it says a lot about how good he is! look back at the Spud Webbs and Nate Robinsons of the past, great players but they were very far from a max deal :)
If Kyrie and IT were on similar contracts a 1 for 1 swap would make sense if IT wanted to go to Cleveland :D but who would sinking ship and all that doom and despair..
Carrying them to the finals will be LeBron’s biggest achievement yet :)
That is the biggest crock I ever heard. The pre-2018 Celtics were a well constructed and coached team. There’s wasn’t much elite talent beyond Thomas but they were deep with good solid players and depth.
Irving, while unsuccessful in terms of wins/losses w/o LBJ he has ALWAYS been able to get his on his own. He isn’t dependent on LBJ to be an all-star player. The team in the last 3 years wasn’t built around him. ROY, 2 all-star appearances and led the Cavs in scoring every year prior to LBJ rejoining the team. To his credit the team event went from 21 wins his rookie year to 24 to 33 wins the year prior to LBJ returning. In his defense, the team was trending upwards with the supporting cast being Luol Deng, Tristan, Dion Waiters and Spencer Hawes over the course of three years. Not exactly a great supporting cast. I think it’s completely unfair to compare the two players in terms of their NBA success prior to LBJ. We’re talking about what he did as the 19-21 year old star on a young fledgling team devoid of another solid star. But you can put Irving on any team and he’s still get you 25 points. You can’t win with him as the only star player but I think you can say that about Jimmy Butler, Demarcus Cousins, Anthony Davis and many other NBA stars.
Why would the Cavs agree to that when IT can be a FA next year? The fact that they can resign him isn’t a benefit to the Celtics. Cavs need more high end upside if it isn’t an established star signed for at least 2 more seasons unless the Cavs can trade some bad contracts back.
Rather hold on to Tatum and Brooklyn pick and offer Cavs Brown, Crowder, and alternative first round pick instead.
You can hold on to those guys all you want, just don’t expect the Cavs to take your offer
Brown, Crowder, Rozier, LAL/SAC pick, and Boston ’18 first is reasonable.
A backcourt of Isaiah and Kyrie will only make the Celtics worse. Giving up Brown and Crowder takes away from the Celtics versatility defensively. A Celtics-Cavs trade won’t happen
I think the Nuggets are interesting. Jamal Murray can shoot it and Gary Harris can shoot it. Lyles can shoot it and Lydon can play D. I’d like to c them get Murray, Lydon, Farried, and a pick. For Irving and Thompson. Maybe get them to throw in another player as well. Thompson doesn’t fit today’s NBA. All he can do is rebound
IT would need to be part of the trade. No way the Celtics want 2 no-defense guards on the court at the same time.
Or they could try to move IT in a seperate trade and just line them up to happen simultaneously. Maybe reacquire a lottery pick if one is sent out for Irving. Sending him and 2 of the Memphis,LAC, and their own picks back to PHX, assuming he just signs a max deal now, for Josh Jackson would be interesting. He may not have a huge interest in playing here but if they send out Brown and Crowder playing time is available. Boston gets better now, and in the long run, and other teams get good value. Phoenix gets a star player while retaining most of their assets.
If the Suns won’t move Josh Jackson for Irving, what makes you think they would move him for Isaiah Thomas
Getting additional assets back with him. He’s a star player, not a top 5 or 10 player, but a star player. If they get 2 more firsts back with him, albeit in the 20’s, unless Memphis trades Gasoline and launches a rebuild, but they aren’t convinced Irving will stay and he doesn’t fit their competitive window. Phoenix would retain most of their trade assets, and IT liked Phoenix, so the deal would be contingent on him signing a new deal now. Irving wouldn’t agree to an extension, but I think IT would, which is why they won’t trade Jackson for him but potentially IT.
As Wojnarowski details, Josh Jackson (Suns), Jayson Tatum (Celtics), Jamal Murray (Nuggets), and even Kristaps Porzingis (Knicks) are among the young players the Cavaliers have their eye on in trade talks
If this is truly the case, the Cavs have a severe case of ‘wishful’ thinking and file the Irving trade under never!!
It’s amazing how emotional fans become about 1st round picks once they have a name attached to them. If Irving were traded for Bledsoe, a unprotected 2018 pick and whatever else, Suns would do it in a second despite the fact that the pick will likely be a top 5 pick next year. But attach a name to the pick and all of a sudden he’s untouchable. What have ANY of those guys done yet? I’m not advocating that a rebuilding team should attempt to trade for Irving but certainly the Celtics should. They are in a win now situation ESPECIALLY if they can facilitate a Cavs team that would be w/o Irving and perhaps LBJ next year.
I wouldn’t take Thomas for Irving unless Tatum and the Nets pick were included. Even if Thomas would agree to re-sign in Cleveland next offseason, he would want considerably more than Irving will make next year, and is not as good as Kyrie.
If I was a GM of any of the teams mentioned only as Boston’s GM would I make a move. It certainly wouldn’t include much more than Thomas though. I just can’t see winning a championship with Isiah as your start, ever.
If your trying to build a Super team to compete with Golden State the you don’t trade Thomas in the Irving deal! You would be giving a star player up for another star player! Yes Irving is better offensively but Thomas is better defensively and can score as well
Irving is better offensively and slightly better on defense.
I beg to differ on the defensive part!
Well IT did get one all defensive vote lol
The whole hesitation of giving Thomas a max offer is BECAUSE he is a liability defensively simply because of his size. He MAY put in more effort than Irving on defense (not saying it’s true or not but giving him the benefit of the doubt) but he CAN be easily overpowered and forces his teammates to help. The Cavs figured out how to minimize him in the playoffs and now that’s a factor for the Celtics. Saying he is better than Irving is a joke.
Today is Aug. 15. GM’s are on vacation. A few names are getting thrown around. Nothing is going to happen yet. But now Sept. 15 that’s something quite different. More serious talking as the season grows near. Does this mean Cleveland will cave in and take a lowball offer? Probably not. Will a couple of the teams that are interested in Irving improve their offers? Maybe. All of this talk is fun but means nothing. We will see next month.
Why on earth would the Celtics trade assets to the Cavs to prolong King James’ reign over them?
Wow……everyone is assuming that Irving will be traded this year and that eventuality would HELP LBJ’s decision to leave. So in essence the Celts can HELP bring about an 2018-19 Cavs team sanz Irving and LBJ. Think about it… The assets the Cavs are seeking are young players and high picks. Those are assets for a rebuild. If Irving and LBJ leave the Cavs then the Celts are poised to dominate the East for at least 4-5 years probably.
Regarding Denver. 1) I don’t see how Murray is better than Gary Harris. But Denver has a number of fine young players.
2) Mason Plumlee is an RFA. Can he be sign-and-traded to a team over the cap? I believe his minimum QO is about 3 mil, which he is easily worth. Cavs need center depth, and Plumlee might even be a starter in Cle.
Jameer Nelson, Plumlee and Harris might be enough to put the Cavs back into the finals, plus the youth requirement: maybe Juan Hernangomez.
Hey Luke A! $9.4mil + Masn Plumlee $(?) = Irving 18.9? Would a delay be necessary? What would a plumlee number be?
Teams in the tax aren’t allowed to acquire a player via sign-and-trade, so the Cavs would need to shed a LOT of salary for Plumlee to be a real possibility. Don’t think it would work (though I agree he’d be a solid fit there).
Thanks, I thought (hoped) being an RFA would change things, since he is already halfway ‘Nugget-bound’.
If Altman is gunning for those 4 young players mentioned by Adrian Woj., Murray/Denver is the most likely by far to be available… Denver supposedly already had Murray or Harris going for Love earlier in the offseason.
Cavs already have players like the other Denver frontcourt players.
I wonder if Silver could grant an exemption since he was so “disappointed” by the Irving situation. Nobody needs to answer that. I wonder what Denver’s QO is. Cavs have a little MLE left but they don’t seem to be interested in helping Tristan out versus the GSW waves.
if the knicks trade Porzingis for Kyrie it would be another stupid mistake committed by the dumbest franchise in sports history!!!
Tatum would be lovely in Cleveland, I think he could be a Kobe type. Tatum,Smart, Crowder, and Thomas in exchange for Kyrie and Love.
Celtics
Irving-Brown-Hayward-Love-Horford
Cavs
Rose-Smith-Tatum-Lebron-Thompson
Thomas, Crowder, and Smart off the bench.
Are you even aware the salary cap exists? Also D-Rose starting over IT? HAHAHAHAHA
If LBJ is still on the team then the Cavs are committed to winning in 2018. Thus, why would they trade Kevin Love, especially to the Celtics?
If LBJ leaves in 2018 and they wanted to rebuild, much to the contrary thinking some knuckle-heads, the Cavs would have ZERO problem moving Kevin Love to a ready-to-win team with cap room.
A “Kobe-like” player? What does that even mean? He would be “like” one of the greatest players in the world? Yeesh. Let the guy play an NBA season for you start gushing hyperbolic statements.
I don’t see him getting traded ya he wants out but nobody’s giving them what they want because they don’t have to because sooner or later his price will drop if he still demands a trade
A Kyrie trade only makes sense for NBA 2k18. In reality hes Stephon Marbury 2.0. Why would any team surrender assets for a guy who doesnt enjoy winning or defense. As a Celtic fan ill take the upside of tatum or brown and future draft picks.